By: Dave Pollard

Dave Pollard — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:27:46 +0000

Jon: I’d like to believe that people care enough about animals (other than their pets) enough to motivate them to action and behaviour change, but the evidence says otherwise. Thousands of birds have been killed by the tailings ponds, and an area the size of Florida will soon be incapable of supporting anything but desert life, but everyone in Alberta knows this, and it’s not enough to move them to action. They’re resigned.

By: John Banfill

John Banfill — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:10:17 +0000

Dave,Perhaps this article is an answer to one of the most effective arguments against the tar sands. That is to show how tar sand mining and refining affects the birds and animals in the area. What happens to waterfowl when they land in the vast tailings lagoons? What effects do the exposed bitumen have on other wildlife? People care about animals but not so much about overused terms like pollution.

By: Janene

Janene — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:51:06 +0000

No problem Dave, Thanks! :-)This is my “lost” comment # 50 something from the other day…..Hey –There is a division in libertarian thought… some are very pro-business, even to the point of upholding corporate “rights”… others, like me, think that is one of the worst ideas ever. :-) And yes… I, too, hope for true freedom… in fact, I’m also an anarchist, if I must be defined by an ism, so there you have it. But I am also a realist and understand that that kind of freedom can only function in snall scale society… thus the link to Dunbar’s Number.I am really appalled to think that one could believe that interpersonal violence (which has always existed and will always exist) is qualitatively the same as the intentional extermination of an entire group of persons (human or animal… ecocide should be included in this discussion as well). By that logic, a lion is immoral for taking down an antelope, two wolves are immoral for battling over leadership of a pack, and I am immoral for killing a toxic spider trying to make its home in my bed. (I encourage spiders generally… but those that can hurt me and want to live too close have to go…) But if this is the way you feel, there is nothing more I can say.It is excessive for me to understand that the problems of our society are systemic and I am culpable so long as I participate in that system? Aren’t you the one that has been arguing that eating meat feeds the factory farming system? Pause for sec….As to primitive societies… there are plenty of cultures at the band level that have cultural characteristics that we don;t like. The yanamamo are very violent (although some recent research suggests that the most egregious behaviors only emerged in response to the approach of civilization). There have been groups that are cannibalistic. There are simple horticultural societies where the most common cause of death is murder… and there have been groups that are amongst the mostloving and caring societies ever seen. But… and this is the most important point… there are a couple of characteristics that they all share… they work for people. No member is marginalized, all have birth to death support from their tribe. All are sustainable because all are intimately tied to their landbase. They are *native* whereas the civilized try very hard to NOT be native… ever. That’s for animals. (hullo? me animal too, ugg :-) )A agree with Malcolm… we aren’t going to destroy the planet… but we are working very hard to add man to the list of extinctions… and we’ll be damned to go without taking as many down with us as we can. So no… I’m not trying to save the planet, I’m trying to save the planet as a human habitat, and hopefully, this helps a lot of other species to survive with us. But if we don’t adapt (in this case, culturally), then we will die. Most people won;t adapt… because they are all too convinced that civilization is wonderful, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. But me… well… I’m working on finding another way and hoping to take as many people along on this ride as I personally can.Janene

By: Dave Pollard

Dave Pollard — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 06:32:32 +0000

You should now be able to resume posting comments here where you left off a couple of days ago. Sorry this comments server is wonky — I’ll be moving to WordPress soon — Dave

Comments on: REPOST: Do We Really Want to Know? (with first 50 reader comments appended)

By: Dave Pollard

By: John Banfill

By: Janene

By: Dave Pollard