Comments on: Links and Tweets for the Week — November 29, 2009 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/ In search of a better way to live and make a living, and a better understanding of how the world really works. Wed, 16 May 2012 01:47:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Richard http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14961 Richard Wed, 23 Dec 2009 03:16:18 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14961 Read "Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. It is possible to be a "mindful omnivore." Also, see today's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=1&hpw Read “Omnivore’s Dilemma” by Michael Pollan.

It is possible to be a “mindful omnivore.”

Also, see today’s New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/science/22angi.html?_r=1&hpw

]]> By: vera http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14781 vera Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:37:32 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14781 <a></a>Dave, I am not perturbed by anything you say about wanting to be a vegan, but when you start telling us it is the only way to go for those who care, then I balk. You got judgmental on us, man...! :-(Jason, you want to cut out the middleman and eat the grains. I say, let's cut out the grains and the middlemen and the destructive grain fields and convert them to pastures and permaculture and forest. And let's not turn eating into religion. Dave, I am not perturbed by anything you say about wanting to be a vegan, but when you start telling us it is the only way to go for those who care, then I balk. You got judgmental on us, man…! :-(Jason, you want to cut out the middleman and eat the grains. I say, let’s cut out the grains and the middlemen and the destructive grain fields and convert them to pastures and permaculture and forest. And let’s not turn eating into religion.

]]> By: Dave Pollard http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14780 Dave Pollard Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:21:26 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14780 <a></a>Everyone -- what Jason said. The facts (as distinct from one's personal choices) are I think an incontrovertible as climate change.Having said that, this (like everything I write here) is JUST MY OPINION. The number of close vegan friends I have is zero, and I completely respect those who don't agree with me on this. I'm just announcing my own intention to become fully vegan as soon as possible, because there do not seem to be any compelling health reasons not to, and because I can't in any conscience work to stop factory farming if I'm a customer. I still love you if you eat meat.It's interesting to me that when I write about bringing down industrial civilization no one gets too perturbed, but when I write about veganism, or polyamory, or masturbation, or other matters of personal choice, it attracts a firestorm of debate and criticism. I'm guessing it's all about what we think we have some control over. It's interesting, anyway. Thanks to you all, and really, no offense intended. Everyone — what Jason said. The facts (as distinct from one’s personal choices) are I think an incontrovertible as climate change.Having said that, this (like everything I write here) is JUST MY OPINION. The number of close vegan friends I have is zero, and I completely respect those who don’t agree with me on this. I’m just announcing my own intention to become fully vegan as soon as possible, because there do not seem to be any compelling health reasons not to, and because I can’t in any conscience work to stop factory farming if I’m a customer. I still love you if you eat meat.It’s interesting to me that when I write about bringing down industrial civilization no one gets too perturbed, but when I write about veganism, or polyamory, or masturbation, or other matters of personal choice, it attracts a firestorm of debate and criticism. I’m guessing it’s all about what we think we have some control over. It’s interesting, anyway. Thanks to you all, and really, no offense intended.

]]> By: Jason Nicholls http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14779 Jason Nicholls Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:12:51 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14779 <a></a>Vera, you may be right in a worst-case vegan diet (highly processed non-organic grain based foods) vs best case omnivore diet (e.g. permaculture food garden, eating the animals that are part of that system) but you're deluding yourself since this isn't how most of the western world feeds itself.The world feeds itself thanks to huge intensive (mono-)agriculture and intensively raised animals. In Australia that means pretty much all intensively raised Chickens and Pork are done on grains and eating bits of other animals. Since this is a very inefficient method to create protein/calories, then the inputs (i.e. grains) are much HIGHER than if we just cut out the middle man (the animal) and ate the grains. Cattle and Sheep/lamb do spend most of their lives in fields but cattle are usually sent to intensive feed lots (on grains) before butchering. With this in mind even a poor vegan food selection would be better than a typical western selection.It's also more complicated than what's fed to the animals, i.e. water use, water pollution, air pollution, etc... Read the UN report on the environmental issue of livestock (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock%27s_Long_Shadow" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock%27s_Long_Shadow</a>). Remember land reclaimed from grazing or growing food (in excess of human needs) can be returned to nature. I don't really believe this will happen since the world population keeps increasing but in an ideal situation...So from an environmental/ecological point of view there could be huge improvements in how food is grown, both at the plant level and at the animal level. I don't think anyone can dispute this.Also I suggest reading Animal Liberation by Peter Singer or the newer co-authored "The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter". Vera, you may be right in a worst-case vegan diet (highly processed non-organic grain based foods) vs best case omnivore diet (e.g. permaculture food garden, eating the animals that are part of that system) but you’re deluding yourself since this isn’t how most of the western world feeds itself.The world feeds itself thanks to huge intensive (mono-)agriculture and intensively raised animals. In Australia that means pretty much all intensively raised Chickens and Pork are done on grains and eating bits of other animals. Since this is a very inefficient method to create protein/calories, then the inputs (i.e. grains) are much HIGHER than if we just cut out the middle man (the animal) and ate the grains. Cattle and Sheep/lamb do spend most of their lives in fields but cattle are usually sent to intensive feed lots (on grains) before butchering. With this in mind even a poor vegan food selection would be better than a typical western selection.It’s also more complicated than what’s fed to the animals, i.e. water use, water pollution, air pollution, etc… Read the UN report on the environmental issue of livestock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock%27s_Long_Shadow). Remember land reclaimed from grazing or growing food (in excess of human needs) can be returned to nature. I don’t really believe this will happen since the world population keeps increasing but in an ideal situation…So from an environmental/ecological point of view there could be huge improvements in how food is grown, both at the plant level and at the animal level. I don’t think anyone can dispute this.Also I suggest reading Animal Liberation by Peter Singer or the newer co-authored “The Way We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter”.

]]> By: vera http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14778 vera Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:31:03 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14778 <a></a>"Vera, I just said it was the only way to go IF you care about animal cruelty and suffering." Exactly. You have just divided the world into caring vegans and the rest of us immoral scum. Thanks a lot!Jason, I sure would like to see you show that a high grain diet has a reduced environmental footprint. Considering it takes 7 kg lost soil to put 1 kg bread on the table in Oz, maybe there is a tiny little problem with such a claim. Prad here ducked it claiming he is a veg & fruit man. How many veg folk fall into the category? Less than 1%? “Vera, I just said it was the only way to go IF you care about animal cruelty and suffering.” Exactly. You have just divided the world into caring vegans and the rest of us immoral scum. Thanks a lot!Jason, I sure would like to see you show that a high grain diet has a reduced environmental footprint. Considering it takes 7 kg lost soil to put 1 kg bread on the table in Oz, maybe there is a tiny little problem with such a claim. Prad here ducked it claiming he is a veg & fruit man. How many veg folk fall into the category? Less than 1%?

]]> By: scruff http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14777 scruff Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:31:55 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14777 <a></a>Dave, I'm sorry; I never knew you got threats for your writings about poly. That's horrible, absolutely unacceptable behavior. I do hope that never happens again. Dave, I’m sorry; I never knew you got threats for your writings about poly. That’s horrible, absolutely unacceptable behavior. I do hope that never happens again.

]]> By: Janene http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14776 Janene Tue, 01 Dec 2009 05:44:54 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14776 <a></a>Hey --Dave... ouch.... really you'ld go there? If you eat meat then you cannot care about animal cruelty and suffering?Actually, this coming up again inspired me to write a post today on my own food decisions and relationships. Not to convince anyone to join me, but merely to expound upon the ethical issues from within my own worldview... <a href="http://terrapraeta.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/anatomy-of-eating-redub/" rel="nofollow">http://terrapraeta.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/anatomy-of-eating-redub/</a>Janene Hey –Dave… ouch…. really you’ld go there? If you eat meat then you cannot care about animal cruelty and suffering?Actually, this coming up again inspired me to write a post today on my own food decisions and relationships. Not to convince anyone to join me, but merely to expound upon the ethical issues from within my own worldview… http://terrapraeta.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/anatomy-of-eating-redub/Janene

]]> By: Dave Pollard http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14775 Dave Pollard Tue, 01 Dec 2009 04:40:54 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14775 <a></a>Thanks everyone. Dale, great stuff from these 3 -- thanks. Vera, I just said it was the only way to go IF you care about animal cruelty and suffering. Scruff, after the threats I received for my writing on poly, I'm nervous about writing about any issue construed as 'moral'. I guess that means no more pro-masturbation posts either, huh? Jason, thanks for the reassurances -- sounds as if our lifestyles are similar though I run more than cycle. Thanks everyone. Dale, great stuff from these 3 — thanks. Vera, I just said it was the only way to go IF you care about animal cruelty and suffering. Scruff, after the threats I received for my writing on poly, I’m nervous about writing about any issue construed as ‘moral’. I guess that means no more pro-masturbation posts either, huh? Jason, thanks for the reassurances — sounds as if our lifestyles are similar though I run more than cycle.

]]> By: Jason Nicholls http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14774 Jason Nicholls Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:29:46 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14774 <a></a>Well done Dave for making the decision to go vegan. I was vegetarian myself for a year and spent that whole time feeling like a hypocrite knowing what I knew and continuing to support the system. After that I became vegan and that was 4 years ago and I'm happy with the decision. For me the driving choice was simply the ethical treatment of animals and the only "against" argument for going vegan was taste. Yes I like the taste of animal products! Probably because I grew up on it like everyone else. But that is such a weak argument if you can even call it that.Ever since going Vegetarian I started getting yearly blood work done to build up a history and ensure no problems. Since then my cholesterol level has dropped, my good to bad ratio has improved out of sight, and I haven't had any issues with iron, B12, etc... levels. I'm also an avid cyclist doing around 200km/week and amongst the top 10-20% of riders in Perth. So energy certainly isn't an issue for me.For the others. I often hear long-time friends (non-vegan) or new non-vegans I meet that are quick to tell me they don't eat much meat, or buy free-range eggs etc... To me that implies some sense of acknowledgement that something isn't right with the system. Most people know more though and choose to ignore the realities. Some are curious but at the same time want to make sure their conscious is clear and out come all the usual attacks like how can I even be alive without animal protein, or how can I even walk around I should be so weak. However if you do make the decision to do the right thing, and that may be to only consume ethical animal products (perhaps that's an oxymoron - i didn't explore this option) then you'd find that you 1) couldn't eat out at all since you don't know where they source their animal products in most cases 2) couldn't eat at any friends place for the same reason. In effect pretty much a vegan diet beyond the home where you have complete control and even then it's probably not practical. Of course being vegan extends beyond diet, but diet is the most difficult aspect to deal with IMO.The human body is a marvelous contraption with the ability to keep itself running on such a broad range of diets in the shorter to medium term. Poorly balanced diets are going to lead to poor health and disease regardless if it's omnivore, vegetarian, or vegan. In most cases the people who aren't vegan, yet criticism my diet, have no clue about their own diet and if it's healthy so it's a bit rich to argue in such a way. Oh and yes, you're going to get some clueless vegans too who are unhealthy due to an unbalanced diet.The health benefits and reduced environmental footprint are just a bonus :) Well done Dave for making the decision to go vegan. I was vegetarian myself for a year and spent that whole time feeling like a hypocrite knowing what I knew and continuing to support the system. After that I became vegan and that was 4 years ago and I’m happy with the decision. For me the driving choice was simply the ethical treatment of animals and the only “against” argument for going vegan was taste. Yes I like the taste of animal products! Probably because I grew up on it like everyone else. But that is such a weak argument if you can even call it that.Ever since going Vegetarian I started getting yearly blood work done to build up a history and ensure no problems. Since then my cholesterol level has dropped, my good to bad ratio has improved out of sight, and I haven’t had any issues with iron, B12, etc… levels. I’m also an avid cyclist doing around 200km/week and amongst the top 10-20% of riders in Perth. So energy certainly isn’t an issue for me.For the others. I often hear long-time friends (non-vegan) or new non-vegans I meet that are quick to tell me they don’t eat much meat, or buy free-range eggs etc… To me that implies some sense of acknowledgement that something isn’t right with the system. Most people know more though and choose to ignore the realities. Some are curious but at the same time want to make sure their conscious is clear and out come all the usual attacks like how can I even be alive without animal protein, or how can I even walk around I should be so weak. However if you do make the decision to do the right thing, and that may be to only consume ethical animal products (perhaps that’s an oxymoron – i didn’t explore this option) then you’d find that you 1) couldn’t eat out at all since you don’t know where they source their animal products in most cases 2) couldn’t eat at any friends place for the same reason. In effect pretty much a vegan diet beyond the home where you have complete control and even then it’s probably not practical. Of course being vegan extends beyond diet, but diet is the most difficult aspect to deal with IMO.The human body is a marvelous contraption with the ability to keep itself running on such a broad range of diets in the shorter to medium term. Poorly balanced diets are going to lead to poor health and disease regardless if it’s omnivore, vegetarian, or vegan. In most cases the people who aren’t vegan, yet criticism my diet, have no clue about their own diet and if it’s healthy so it’s a bit rich to argue in such a way. Oh and yes, you’re going to get some clueless vegans too who are unhealthy due to an unbalanced diet.The health benefits and reduced environmental footprint are just a bonus :)

]]> By: Paul http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-14773 Paul Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:28:53 +0000 http://howtosavetheworld.ca/2009/11/29/links-and-tweets-for-the-week-november-29-2009/#comment-14773 <a></a>Dale, thanks for the leads. Dale, thanks for the leads.

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