A pretentious and presumptuous attempt to document what bloggers have learned, without any formal instruction, to do every day.
And then a description of what’s needed to make blogs a medium for real conversation. For some bloggers, just writing is enough. For most of us, though, we’re looking to the blogosphere to provide us with useful and interesting information, education, entertainment and/or inspiration for our writing, and feedback, a critical audience, and help with the creative and publishing process. That process looks (to me at least) something like this: As we all know, this is a lot of work, and there’s never enough time to do it perfectly. I budget 75 minutes/day for reading (the steps in red), 60 minutes/day for writing (green), 15 minutes/day for promotion (blue), and, on the weekend, 60 minutes/week for blog community activities, focused on Salon Blogs, my chosen community. As an empty-nester and night-owl, I do most of this between 8-11pm, but I try to post during prime blog time (5am-5pm) so my posts show up in the ‘recently updated’ lists when most people are reading. Blogging has taught me to write better (believe it or not), to write faster, and what blog readers like and don’t like of my work. That’s enough to keep me blogging. But I know of several bloggers who gave up because they didn’t discover, or didn’t feel, a sense of community. Or they found blogging too impersonal compared to chat, IM, and the telephone. A blog is a very blunt tool, and provides little context of the writer’s personality, the kind of context that allows the development of real relationships (business or personal). For personal relationship building, some bloggers have added chat, IM or webcam functionality to their blogs. Group blogs, forums and wikis allow collaborative work, which enables some real relationship building. And business networking tools like Ryze and LinkedIn allow bloggers to identify business needs and credentials to forge stronger business connections. But in the absence of these appendages, blogs remain primarily one-way communication media. Comments threads, especially when they get long and divergent, are very clumsy ways of carrying on a communication. As a result, back-channeling (taking a comment thread ‘offline’ and continuing it by private e-mail) deprives the rest of the readers of the benefits of the conversation, and e-mail threads aren’t very good conversational vehicles themselves (compared to face-to-face, telephone, chat or IM). Why can’t we enhance blog software so it allows a discussion, at the author’s discretion, to migrate simply to other, more powerful conversational tools without losing the connection to the initial blog post that provoked it? I could (as lots of bloggers do) add applets and links for chat, IM, voice-over-IP, a webcam, desktop videoconferencing, my forums and groups, and my Ryze and LinkedIn pages. But they still wouldn’t be connected, and I’d expect few readers to comfortably jump to the other ‘channels’ to continue a discussion started by a blog post. Or to use these tools ‘cold’ to communicate with me out of the blue. This probably shows I’m just not used to these other tools and their codes of behaviour, but I’d bet most of us are in the same boat. What’s needed is a seamless migration path between the ‘channels’, and an accepted and intuitive protocol for deciding which ‘channel’ to use when. Not all bloggers will want or use this bi-directional communication functionality, of course. The blogosphere has multiple information cultures, and many bloggers are perfectly content with one-directional communication. Some don’t even turn on their commenting capability, following the historical magazine dictum of only allowing readers to write ‘letters to the editor’. And I respect their right to do so. But I think many of us are aching to enrich the relationships with our readers, to whom we owe a great deal, and would welcome bi-directional, multi-channel communication functionality, tightly linked to our blog posts, to allow us to engage in true conversations and community-building with them. If you know of examples of blogs that have been so enriched (probably by tech-savvy bloggers tweaking their own blogs) please let me know, and I’ll start a list of them on my blogroll. In the meantime, I’m going to try to push the blog envelope in more modest ways, within my very limited technical capability. I’ve put up my picture at right and updated my bio, so I’m not so mysterious. Watch for some peculiar boxes to appear at the end of certain posts that will take you to my IM address, scheduled discussions on my forums and groups, or my Ryze or LinkedIn pages. Yes, I know that figuring out blogs’ peculiar technical foibles is already hard enough for most of us, and that none of us has enough time even for the steps in the chart above. But if we’re going to save the world and stuff we need to really communicate, to make blogs tools to really connect us with like minds, not just to inform and entertain. I’ve ‘met’ a few of my readers in person or by telephone conversation, and let me tell you the sudden jump in medium and connection is psychologically jarring. It shouldn’t have to be. Who knows, maybe by next year the chart above will be so much more complex it’ll look like a plan for extricating Bush from Iraq. |
Navigation
Collapsniks
Albert Bates (US)
Andrew Nikiforuk (CA)
Brutus (US)
Carolyn Baker (US)*
Catherine Ingram (US)
Chris Hedges (US)
Dahr Jamail (US)
Dean Spillane-Walker (US)*
Derrick Jensen (US)
Dougald & Paul (IE/SE)*
Erik Michaels (US)
Gail Tverberg (US)
Guy McPherson (US)
Honest Sorcerer
Janaia & Robin (US)*
Jem Bendell (UK)
Mari Werner
Michael Dowd (US)*
Nate Hagens (US)
Paul Heft (US)*
Post Carbon Inst. (US)
Resilience (US)
Richard Heinberg (US)
Robert Jensen (US)
Roy Scranton (US)
Sam Mitchell (US)
Tim Morgan (UK)
Tim Watkins (UK)
Umair Haque (UK)
William Rees (CA)
XrayMike (AU)
Radical Non-Duality
Tony Parsons
Jim Newman
Tim Cliss
Andreas Müller
Kenneth Madden
Emerson Lim
Nancy Neithercut
Rosemarijn Roes
Frank McCaughey
Clare Cherikoff
Ere Parek, Izzy Cloke, Zabi AmaniEssential Reading
Archive by Category
My Bio, Contact Info, Signature Posts
About the Author (2023)
My Circles
E-mail me
--- My Best 200 Posts, 2003-22 by category, from newest to oldest ---
Collapse Watch:
Hope — On the Balance of Probabilities
The Caste War for the Dregs
Recuperation, Accommodation, Resilience
How Do We Teach the Critical Skills
Collapse Not Apocalypse
Effective Activism
'Making Sense of the World' Reading List
Notes From the Rising Dark
What is Exponential Decay
Collapse: Slowly Then Suddenly
Slouching Towards Bethlehem
Making Sense of Who We Are
What Would Net-Zero Emissions Look Like?
Post Collapse with Michael Dowd (video)
Why Economic Collapse Will Precede Climate Collapse
Being Adaptable: A Reminder List
A Culture of Fear
What Will It Take?
A Future Without Us
Dean Walker Interview (video)
The Mushroom at the End of the World
What Would It Take To Live Sustainably?
The New Political Map (Poster)
Beyond Belief
Complexity and Collapse
Requiem for a Species
Civilization Disease
What a Desolated Earth Looks Like
If We Had a Better Story...
Giving Up on Environmentalism
The Hard Part is Finding People Who Care
Going Vegan
The Dark & Gathering Sameness of the World
The End of Philosophy
A Short History of Progress
The Boiling Frog
Our Culture / Ourselves:
A CoVid-19 Recap
What It Means to be Human
A Culture Built on Wrong Models
Understanding Conservatives
Our Unique Capacity for Hatred
Not Meant to Govern Each Other
The Humanist Trap
Credulous
Amazing What People Get Used To
My Reluctant Misanthropy
The Dawn of Everything
Species Shame
Why Misinformation Doesn't Work
The Lab-Leak Hypothesis
The Right to Die
CoVid-19: Go for Zero
Pollard's Laws
On Caste
The Process of Self-Organization
The Tragic Spread of Misinformation
A Better Way to Work
The Needs of the Moment
Ask Yourself This
What to Believe Now?
Rogue Primate
Conversation & Silence
The Language of Our Eyes
True Story
May I Ask a Question?
Cultural Acedia: When We Can No Longer Care
Useless Advice
Several Short Sentences About Learning
Why I Don't Want to Hear Your Story
A Harvest of Myths
The Qualities of a Great Story
The Trouble With Stories
A Model of Identity & Community
Not Ready to Do What's Needed
A Culture of Dependence
So What's Next
Ten Things to Do When You're Feeling Hopeless
No Use to the World Broken
Living in Another World
Does Language Restrict What We Can Think?
The Value of Conversation Manifesto Nobody Knows Anything
If I Only Had 37 Days
The Only Life We Know
A Long Way Down
No Noble Savages
Figments of Reality
Too Far Ahead
Learning From Nature
The Rogue Animal
How the World Really Works:
Making Sense of Scents
An Age of Wonder
The Truth About Ukraine
Navigating Complexity
The Supply Chain Problem
The Promise of Dialogue
Too Dumb to Take Care of Ourselves
Extinction Capitalism
Homeless
Republicans Slide Into Fascism
All the Things I Was Wrong About
Several Short Sentences About Sharks
How Change Happens
What's the Best Possible Outcome?
The Perpetual Growth Machine
We Make Zero
How Long We've Been Around (graphic)
If You Wanted to Sabotage the Elections
Collective Intelligence & Complexity
Ten Things I Wish I'd Learned Earlier
The Problem With Systems
Against Hope (Video)
The Admission of Necessary Ignorance
Several Short Sentences About Jellyfish
Loren Eiseley, in Verse
A Synopsis of 'Finding the Sweet Spot'
Learning from Indigenous Cultures
The Gift Economy
The Job of the Media
The Wal-Mart Dilemma
The Illusion of the Separate Self, and Free Will:
No Free Will, No Freedom
The Other Side of 'No Me'
This Body Takes Me For a Walk
The Only One Who Really Knew Me
No Free Will — Fightin' Words
The Paradox of the Self
A Radical Non-Duality FAQ
What We Think We Know
Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark Bark
Healing From Ourselves
The Entanglement Hypothesis
Nothing Needs to Happen
Nothing to Say About This
What I Wanted to Believe
A Continuous Reassemblage of Meaning
No Choice But to Misbehave
What's Apparently Happening
A Different Kind of Animal
Happy Now?
This Creature
Did Early Humans Have Selves?
Nothing On Offer Here
Even Simpler and More Hopeless Than That
Glimpses
How Our Bodies Sense the World
Fragments
What Happens in Vagus
We Have No Choice
Never Comfortable in the Skin of Self
Letting Go of the Story of Me
All There Is, Is This
A Theory of No Mind
Creative Works:
Mindful Wanderings (Reflections) (Archive)
A Prayer to No One
Frogs' Hollow (Short Story)
We Do What We Do (Poem)
Negative Assertions (Poem)
Reminder (Short Story)
A Canadian Sorry (Satire)
Under No Illusions (Short Story)
The Ever-Stranger (Poem)
The Fortune Teller (Short Story)
Non-Duality Dude (Play)
Your Self: An Owner's Manual (Satire)
All the Things I Thought I Knew (Short Story)
On the Shoulders of Giants (Short Story)
Improv (Poem)
Calling the Cage Freedom (Short Story)
Rune (Poem)
Only This (Poem)
The Other Extinction (Short Story)
Invisible (Poem)
Disruption (Short Story)
A Thought-Less Experiment (Poem)
Speaking Grosbeak (Short Story)
The Only Way There (Short Story)
The Wild Man (Short Story)
Flywheel (Short Story)
The Opposite of Presence (Satire)
How to Make Love Last (Poem)
The Horses' Bodies (Poem)
Enough (Lament)
Distracted (Short Story)
Worse, Still (Poem)
Conjurer (Satire)
A Conversation (Short Story)
Farewell to Albion (Poem)
My Other Sites
what do you think of a threaded forum type of commenting system? i could whip one of those up pretty quick. or even a java applet that was a chat room and streamed the chat to the websites database backend in realtime and allowed users not in the discussion to see it as a threaded forum on the site thats dynamically updated with whats going on the in the chat room. could do it with im too.
Threaded comments would be nifty–good idea.
*goes to work on threaded comments*
Brilliant. As one who has difficulty compliling a shopping list, I’m lost in admiration. Sound analysis & absolute clarity of presentation. Saved staright onto my computer…Dick Jones
What I would like is for the comments to be more visible. I’ve seen some blogs where you can click and the comments for a particular post sort of embed within the blog and stay there. So you can continue following that thread without clicking every time. Is anything like that possible with Radio?
Mark Carey has done some work on blurring the lines between normal blog-view and the conversational style of a forum. Not threaded per-se, but I thought it might be interesting:http://www.blogcoop.com/http://www.markcarey.com/web-dawn/ (check out the forum-view tab)~Lee
Bryan: What fascinates me about open-source software like blogs’ is how easy it is to add functionality. I look forward to the results of your efforts.Dave: Absolutely possible. It’s just a question of whether we get Dave Winer & Co to incorporate this or let keeners like Bryan build that functionality. Another thing that my Salon survey revealed was that Radio needs an ‘abstract’ facility like Moveable Type’s i.e. if you have a long post you just show the first para or a teaser on the main blog page followed by a hotlink that says ‘[more]’ that takes you to the full article. That allows you to cram a lot more on the page and makes it easier for people who read you only every week or two to browse and pick up only the couple of articles they’re interested in.Lee: Thanks, that is an interesting concept. I’ve seen some examples that show the first line of each comment, each comment-on-the comment etc., with indentations used to show who’s responding to what. It’s definitely conversational, but it’s still far short of what a real conversation offers. I know, I’m just impossible to satisfy ;-)
some of you people with cool articles to write should write on my blog (: i only made it for fun. and i have pretty much nothing worth writing in it.. but yeah, i’ll make a threaded style commenting system.
Already got a team working on threads – see http://www.threadsml.org/(in particular the Wiki)There’s a bit of a pause at the moment to see how Pie/Echo/Atom fits into the picture.All the machine bits of your flowchart (and more) I’m integrating into a single app, along with project management etc. Seehttp://ideagraph.net
Excellent chart, btw – very useful.
I agree with you, Dave, my Forum view for blogs helps improve the conversation nature of blogs, but it is still far short of a real conversation. My vision is to provide the ability to “reply with ________”, in which the ______ could be IM, IRC, video, voice, email, etc. — and the “reply” would be automatically posted in the conversation thread. That, combined with a good system for tracking and monitoring conversations on mutiple blogs, would be great start.
that web outliner thing from Danny’s post is the first thing thats surprised and excited me that i’ve seen online in a long time. thats fucking awsome!
Danny/Bryan: This could be dynamite, but I confess it looks complex to me — might have a steep learning curve (I find even blogging to be technically challenging and I’m still intimidated by wikis). Mark’s idea of a ‘reply with’ button to replace the ‘comments’ button, and which allows you to pick a channel, sounds simple and intuitive to me, if the software could keep track of the conversation across channels.
well i was going to do the threaded comments this weekend, but whats the point with things like the web outliner! maybe i’ll build on of those from scratch. or maybe i’ll actually write something worth reading in my blog…
While these ideas are sound, I’m wondering if they miss the essence of the problem. The problem is still seems to be that weblogs (comments, forums, etc.) fail to communicate the personality of a person. One reason this seems to be so is that when I write a comment on your page, I am bound by the style/focus/content of _your_ page. The structural constraints reduce the hearsay that normally fuels social circles (hence relationships hence communication). I am more interested in what you are writing than what you are reading; in those conversations where you have chosen not only to witness but also to participate. If I knew where you were actively engaged, I would be able to better judge you in the context of the full spectrum of your (internet) social actions, as opposed to those isolated to your weblog or a chance read in a comment box. After all, I’m more likely to know someone after a night on the town than by having read every book he or she has ever thumbed.
Dave, in *Blogging vs Commenting* is my perception about part of the tool integration issue you’re considering. Following the second approach, here is my feedback to your post: *don’t miss the main goal of the process*.
The comments then proceed as any other conversation, absolutely open and with agreed upon rules to make it transparent to others.The other thing is that we have to be ablt ot cross through posts on comments, some sort of AI that can jump from one post to the other in comments, thus creating an experience that integrates th whole participation.Finally,I want to be able to search them all easily!I do not want to guess about conversation, it should proceed easily into my thinking process.
camilo, i don’t have anything else to do today, i’ll get started.
Over the weekend, I wrote an applescript to grab a Safari url. Combined with a some metadata from a dialogue box, the url is thrown to my database where it is promptly spit out on my weblog. It’s highly proprietary right now, but you can see the direction it is going in on my site.One problem – most comment boxes don’t backlink to their posts, so when I link to the comment I lose the context of the post. I’m brainstorming now, but if anyone has an idea, feel free to write or comment here or on my site.
Wonderful post, Dave. Particularly like the analysis of the flow of behaviors and time spent on each. As a visual person, find the chart impressive and useful.
i just got around to doing anything about the threaded commenting stuff. its in place on my site. i know most of the subject matter that people write about on my site is retarded, but ohwell, its a public place. anyway, go there and write something interesting so i can post comments… and comments to those that are threaded!
I’ll follow the discussion here to see how people solve the ‘blogger-reader distance problem’. I’ve followed your lead by posting an image of the haggard ol’ blogger on my page. If nothing else, maybe it will scare away the groundhogs.
Okay, you have inputs and outputs, nonetheless, you are missing the black box, the times in the processes when _people_ _actually_ _think_ about what they are reading or writing.
http://beverlyhillspimpsnhos.com/presskit/detail.asp?iType=37&iPic=215
Dave, I know this is an old entry of yours, but I’ve just now taken the time to read it. It is extraordinary and helpful. I am trying to participate in the blogosphere in meaningful ways, now that I have the hang of how to go about it all, and the process you use is disciplined while remaining free and open. Thanks for taking time to help us newbies with these important posts of yours.Todd
Excellent idea. I was discussing, on the XmlHTTPRequest Live Chat demo site, a setup similar to this as well. One could have the live chat system log all chats, and insert them as comments into the blogging software (depending on which entry the chat was opened from). That’s at least a start.
Great Article
vbulletin, a licensed discussion board software, written in php, has a blog “addon” with threaded comments. The only one I’ve found with that capability. An ideal collaboration would be between CSS and PHP developers at movabletype and vbulletin to come up with a hybrid that integrates both softwares.For an example of threaded commenting see my blog & board:http://www.democracyforcalifornia.com/index.phpIf you don’t want to register you can see the board at:http://www.democracyforcalifornia.com/losangeles/index.phpI’ve added a shoutbox to the board, which is very popular with my members. It really helps to integrate the community, gives everyone a central meeting place where they can chat, make annoucements and link to threads or URLs. It’s amazing how a little addon like that can enhance the social dynamics.
Muy interesante todo y las fotos muy bonitas.
liuliuliuliuliuliuliuloiuu